{"id":4215,"date":"2022-01-10T22:18:04","date_gmt":"2022-01-10T22:18:04","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/localhost:8000\/?page_id=4215"},"modified":"2025-03-05T18:15:54","modified_gmt":"2025-03-06T02:15:54","slug":"unspoken-genius","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/research\/jim-carrolls-interviews\/unspoken-genius\/","title":{"rendered":"Unspoken Genius"},"content":{"rendered":"\n

Interview by Suzan Alteri
Real Detroit Weekly<\/a>, 13-19 January 2000<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Real Detroit probes the mind of a true Renaissance man.<\/em><\/p>\n\n\n\n

REAL Detroit: Why did you start doing spoken word performances?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

Jim Carroll: <\/strong>Well readings is just another name for spoken word performance I guess. When the whole spoken word thing happened, you know new things came along like slams and people doing more amalgamating performance art with spoken word pieces. Usually in the old days, performance art happenings, the best ones, were wordless and so it\u2019s just like a combination of both. I come from the old school where I think any poem worth its salt has to work on the page. But I also think it has to have a natural lyrical quality to it and of course it\u2019s much better if you can hear the person read it but I still believe that you have to delineate on the page by the line. It\u2019s just a matter of technique, short lines slow it up and it just defines how it should be read. I have made concessions from what poetry readings used to be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

In the old days there were certain poets whose poems I really liked on the page who were really dreadful readers, which is true to this day. I think John Ashbery is the best poet alive and he\u2019s a really boring reader. At the same time there are other poets whose poems I didn\u2019t like on the page and they were just fantastic when they read. Like Ginsberg, well I liked Allen\u2019s poems on the page, but he was a fantastic reader too. Other beats, more obscure beat poets like Ray Brahms or somebody like that, whose poems I didn\u2019t like on the page but when he read he had that jazz thing happening, but that\u2019s kind of an old school thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I\u2019ve made certain concessions. I did this spoken word record in \u201893 with no music, Praying Mantis, I put a couple of pieces on that which worked when I read them but I didn\u2019t put in my next book because they didn\u2019t seem to work on the page. I was doing a lot of readings so I thought, I guess I am writing certain pieces for the ear rather than for the page or for the eye. I\u2019m more aware of it and I guess through rock and roll I learned to perform better.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The other thing I started to get into doing monologues. I\u2019d start out with a germ of an idea that wasn\u2019t written down and it\u2019s more like telling a story. It\u2019s difficult because you\u2019re working without a net, you don\u2019t have any page to resort to; if you go off it\u2019s really bad. You really need energy from the audience for something like that. And a lot of them, each time you do them, some new character comes or you get something different and after a while some of them turn into short stories. You write them out and put (them) through the literary machine. Sometimes they work as short stories, I\u2019m working on some of them now and I\u2019ve done that in the past. Others don\u2019t and you just kind of discard those and it\u2019s just as well. That\u2019s more of a spoken word aspect that I wouldn\u2019t do at a poetry reading when I was young.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But aside from that, the other thing is since I write prose and poems I always usually start with prose pieces, whether it\u2019s a monologue or a piece from a book. The problem is I\u2019ve been working on these novels and it\u2019s much different than from taking things like in Forced Entries that are short diary entries and they read very well It\u2019s hard to read from these books because you could go twenty pages and still not hit the germane parts. There are some parts where I can take little fragments. There\u2019s no real plot or anything, there\u2019s just an image that works as a slice. For the most part I find it hard to read from those. I usually like to read prose pieces and have most of them be kind of funny and then the second part of the reading I\u2019ll read poems which are usually more serious but I\u2019ve noticed it depends what poems I read. It seemed at the last reading the poems were pretty funny too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Most of the poems I read now are from Void of Course, my most recent book. With poems, it\u2019s like with songs, people have certain favorite ones they want to hear and then don\u2019t mind hearing those over and over again, you\u2019re just reading one time a year. But with prose, people want to hear a different piece than they heard the year before. I don\u2019t know exactly what prose pieces I read last year, but I\u2019ll find out and I won\u2019t read the same pieces this time. I don\u2019t know what the difference is, that\u2019s just my way of going about it. The main difference between spoken word and poetry readings, (spoken word) has opened more doors. I\u2019m not really into poetry slams and stuff. Usually the poems that win, and people will even admit it, are their weakest poems they\u2019re just funny, shocking…<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RD: Entertaining.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

JC:<\/strong> Yeah. But it brings more people into it and it makes poetry more accessible in different forms and people can just get into it and then once they\u2019re there they can neutralize it from their own taste. In that sense it\u2019s a good thing and all those things are welcome.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The whole thing of spoken word being some phenomenon that\u2019s going to be there with rock and roll is total bullshit. That\u2019s never going to happen, people want a backbeat. I just know from doing both, I could feel the difference from the audience. But there are certain similarities and certain tricks you can bring from rock and roll. Writing a lyric and writing a poem are two different things technically.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

It always angered me when critics would refer to the lyrics as poems because they\u2019re very different (even if) in the aesthetic sense you try and do the same thing. But I don\u2019t think that spoken word is going to eclipse music in any sense. I see people incorporating it at different times in a useful way and that\u2019s good. Someone will come along and put it all together in some unique way but I don\u2019t who that\u2019s going to be.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RD: Do you think that poetry has become more accessible to the public?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

JC: <\/strong>Yeah. I think so, I mean poetry as spoken word. I think rap has helped do that. In New York there\u2019s a lot of rap guys who go to spoken word venues like the Nuyorican Cafe and they\u2019ve been taken in. At first they was a separation and some antagonism but now a lot of rap guys are just reading their pieces without any music.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I think it makes it all more accessible because poetry readings (are) not something that everybody is going to get into. That\u2019s why I\u2019ll start off with a prose piece that\u2019s funny and more accessible to people who are not used to it (poetry readings) because it\u2019s an acquired taste. I see it with all these kids.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I have this new audience of kids who bought The Basketball Diaries after the movie came out, which surprised me because I thought they\u2019d just see it because of Leonardo or Marky or something. When it went back on the New York Times Bestseller List my publisher and I couldn\u2019t figure out who was buying all these books and it turned out to be all these kids. I soon started to get all these letters from these kids like between 12 and 18 and they would show up at readings. That was great because I always liked kids who were the age when I wrote the book reading it. It certainly brought up some problems for me in the past couple years. Most of the letters I get from kids, they\u2019ve read The Basketball Diaries and then they actually did go out and buy my books of poems and they hadn\u2019t really read poems before and they dig\u2019em. That\u2019s good from another direction. I think it is more accessible now and it is bigger. I just mean not on the level of rock or anything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RD: When you wrote The Basketball Diaries<\/em> and when they were subsequently published, did you have any idea the impact they would have?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

JC: <\/strong>No. When I wrote them I had no idea but you have to remember when I wrote them I didn\u2019t think about publishing them. I didn\u2019t write them as a dear diary, I did write them for an audience really even if I didn\u2019t know it at the time. I was addressing an audience, I say it right in the book sometimes. But I didn\u2019t think about publishing it because then I got into poetry and pushed that aside.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Then they had a prose issue of this poetry magazine and they asked me if I had any prose, this was when I was about 17 or 18, and I said, “Well I have these diaries I wrote and they\u2019d be kind of camp in a certain way.” I remember Ted Berrigan, a poet who was like a big mentor of mine, a big brother, he said, “This is a money book, man.”<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Then the people at the Paris Review read them and said, “You should send us about thirty pages.” So when they were published there I got all these letters from publishers who wanted to do it, but I didn\u2019t publish it then, this was in 1970. I just didn\u2019t think it was a good time to publish it because it wasn\u2019t really a hippie book.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

When I started to do music I looked at the diaries, I had been in the recluse period in California for years and I hadn\u2019t thought about publishing anything really. I had to go to New York and I brought The Basketball Diaries with me because I thought that if The Ramones are writing songs about guys sniffing glue and there\u2019s all these pieces about sniffing glue and cleaning fluid in the Diaries, I think it\u2019s much closer to the punk audience. So I waited until then. I guess it was just a thing of timing at that point.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The way its gone on through other generations since then has been interesting to me. The whole thing of the shit in Kentucky and Columbine is weird and I don\u2019t know what that\u2019s about. I can\u2019t account for the impact, the only thing I can think that separates it from other books like that is it was written at the time when I was that age. It wasn\u2019t a book about youth looking back. I mean they are great books like Catcher In The Rye that are written looking back and that\u2019s just coming from another angle. That book certainly has spawned a lot of havoc too. It also may be because they\u2019re in diary form but still read like a novel in a certain way. It lets kids read them (by) skipping around at first.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I remember when I first published it and I sent a copy to Sam Shepperd. He sent me this letter, because he\u2019d read them in magazines over the years. I was living near him in California and I said, “I finally published the fuckin\u2019 thing.” He said send me a copy. When he first read it he read them just skipping around and he thought he read them all and then he\u2019d find one he hadn\u2019t read and it was like a bonus. But then he read it cover to cover and he said it had a completely different effect. I thought that was really terrific.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I know when Bantam first published it they did some kind of study on how many people had read different Bantam books for each copy sold and The Basketball Diaries had the most people who read it for each copy sold because it was borrowed from so many people.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Whenever I do booksignings people are always saying, “Could you make this out to so and so because I stole his copy and this is the only way I can become friends again, if I get a signed copy.” You know you can pick it up and just read two excerpts and stick it in your pocket and leave. (You can) read it that way and then get a different take reading it cover to cover.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

It\u2019s also one of the most stolen books apparently. The guy at Barnes and Noble told me. In a lot of bookstores, with Charles Bukowski and (William) Burroughs and (Jack) Kerouac I think, it\u2019s in the information section because it\u2019s stolen a lot.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RD: Wow, that\u2019s cool.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

JC: <\/strong>Yeah it\u2019s kind of cool.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RD: Does it bother you that the Basketball Diaries is your most well-known work?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

JC: <\/strong>Yes. That\u2019s why I\u2019m working on these books now. These novels, the one I\u2019m working on now, is in the third person, it\u2019s not autobiographical at all. Of course it bothers me, I mean my first album was the most successful album by far too. I mean that happens. It happened with On The Road, well On The Road wasn\u2019t Kerouac\u2019s first book but the Town and City didn\u2019t sell at all. It happened with Patti\u2019s (Smith) first album, well at least it was more successful commercially. I mean it\u2019s her fans favorite album. I don\u2019t know what that has to do with it, but it pisses me off at times, you know? What are you going to do though?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RD: Do you think of yourself more as a poet rather than a diarist or a novelist?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

JC: <\/strong>Yeah I always thought of myself as a poet. That\u2019s what I made up my mind I was going to be when I was like 15 or 16. And you know I had success very early, I was kind of the token prodigy at St. Mark\u2019s (Poetry Project) which is a good thing and a bad thing. Early success can lead to an arrested adolescence in a way which is not good. But I\u2019ve always basically thought of myself as a poet.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

With rock and roll it was a complete fluke how I got into that. I was writing some songs for other groups and then, since with punk you really didn\u2019t have to have a good voice or anything, there was a local band all ready-made when I was on the West coast who wanted to do something with me. It just went over really well and then we started to work together. I came to New York and got a record deal. I never would have imagined I would have been doing that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

With prose, I have a sense of prose that brings me enjoyment. Since I\u2019m working in total fiction, the characters are entertaining to me and they\u2019re like real people whereas poetry I\u2019m dealing with taking myself out of my day to day life in a much different way. But actually in Void of Course the poems are much more about dealing with myself than in my earlier poems where they were more erudite in a certain sense. (There\u2019s a lot of) angst, betrayal – it\u2019s not a happy book. (A poet) is just always been what I thought I was and was meant to be. These other things just seem to come up you know?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I think if I was starting all over now being a writer, I\u2019d probably be dealing with film. All the young writers I know who are really talented in New York are all into film. They either write screenplays or directing. Actually I\u2019m kind of working of this screenplay myself now you know, but I can\u2019t throw myself into it like these guys can. Also being around film now I see that any half-ass can direct, you just need a good director of photography, a good cinematographer and you\u2019re fine. So that\u2019s not such a big deal.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

When Harmony Korine first sent me a copy of the screenplay for KIDS I read it through and it was like a fucking novel to me I never read a screenplay like that. I read it cover to cover in one sitting. He\u2019d been trying to get in touch with me for years and I called him up immediately and said, “This is fucking great.” He\u2019s incredibly well-read but he doesn\u2019t really have much interest in writing novels or anything like that. He published a book of little short surreal pieces but I think that was just because he was doing them and he was hot and they gave him a lot of money for it (laughs). I mean even guys who started out writing books like Sherman Alexie, he\u2019s totally more into film now it seems to me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Richie Price, who\u2019s a big screenwriter, he\u2019s a contemporary of mine, and he always said when he went out to Hollywood, “You should come out here, man. There\u2019s a fucking fortune just for writing a three page outline.” And it\u2019s true, but he could write rewrites really fast and I\u2019m not really that good at that. So it\u2019s a different thing for me. I just feel like if I went out there, I\u2019d just be stuck there so I try to avoid it at all costs.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RD: You worked with and hung out with a lot of seminal people in the art\/literary\/punk scene, did that influence your work at all?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

JC:<\/strong> Well not really. I mean when people started to make it or deciding what their best medium was, I left New York (in \u201873 when Living At The Movies came out) and went to California. (I) was kind of away from that whole scene. I mean it depends on the people. Do you mean the older people like Allen (Ginsberg) or are you talking about people like Patti Smith from the punk scene?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RD: Both, I mean you were sort of in both weren\u2019t you?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

JC:<\/strong> Well yeah. Poetry-wise I liked Allen\u2019s poems and I was influenced by his mind. I talked to him a lot about politics and stuff but I wasn\u2019t into the Beats so much poetry-wise. I was more into the New York School guys. The Basketball Diaries kind of has that Beat writing thing, but I wrote that so young.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

In poetry I wanted to get away from that. I was a little snot. I wanted to be more erudite and I was more influenced by Frank O\u2019Hara and (John) Ashbery and the New York School who were coming from the French and German poets. But in a way I definitely learned a lot from Allen. Burroughs, out of all those writers, I think I learned a lot reading his books.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But with Patti when I first knew her she had just left art school and she was mainly doing drawings. Then she started to write poems and she would show them to me. She was just starting to put a band together when I left New York. I saw her first couple of shows and I thought, well this is the medium for her. I always knew Patti, just from being with her, had this vacillation from this sweetness to this total rage and magic thing happening so I always knew she was a great performer just from her first poetry reading.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Her poems to me were much better, the words to me, were much better set to music than they were at the page. I think she\u2019s written some good poems and they\u2019re really unique. I could see, this was when she just had Lenny (Kaye) playing guitar and Richard Sole playing keyboards, she didn\u2019t have a drummer or anything.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

My only connection when I was in California was reading the Village Voice. In about three years the whole thing was happening at CBGB\u2019s and the Mercer Arts Center and Patti was just a huge star, I mean it surprised me on that level but it didn\u2019t surprise me. She was made for rock and roll and it was made for her.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Then people like Richard Hell, who was Richard Meyers when I left, just hanging around the poetry scene and stuff. I wonder a lot what would have happened if I stayed in New York. If I would have gotten into music too. I don\u2019t know if I would have. My little snot-nosed tendencies (laughs) might have made me say, “No, I\u2019m not going to do that.” I think that it was just the right thing for me to do at that time, to get away. That was the best influence for me and just being by myself alone and in the country for the first time in my life and having a dog. My dog was my biggest influence on my work (laughs).<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Of course all the poets like Ted Berrigan and Anne Waldman who were around St. Mark\u2019s were I guess the biggest influences on me, I learned a lot. But (when) the whole burgeoning of the punk scene (happened), the highlight of my day was going to the post office in this little town in California while everybody was being wild at CBGB\u2019s. I kind of miss it, the fact that I wasn\u2019t there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

All those people were influences on my life and since my life was pretty much so connected to my work, it was kind of the same thing. Just from being with Patti, I had this Apollonian craft thing and she was completely dionysian just let it all blow out. A lot of that rubbed off of me as much as it could, so in that sense it was a big influence just in a personal sense from all those people. But then I was away, so I can\u2019t say it was a huge influence like in a direct literary sense.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RD: When you got started in rock and roll, how did you keep that persona different from Jim Carroll the writer?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

JC: <\/strong>I had to put the writer thing aside. I can\u2019t stand doing things in any dilettantish sense and I thought the first thing people were going to look for was, “This is just some fucking pretentious shit” or something. I was really conscious of that and I just thought if I was going to do rock and roll, I just got to throw myself into it completely.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The thing I really always liked best, and maybe that\u2019s why I did side projects often in different mediums, was I liked to learn new things. It was just great learning about music. I always could play the guitar in a limited sense but not well at all, enough to write music to songs. Music always influenced my writing a lot, inspired it and I listened to a song and it would inspire me to write a poem more than it would if I had read a poem when I was a young poet.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But when I started to actually do rock and roll, and certainly when I started to do rock and roll I think the freedom for that was just given to me by what people were doing in New York at CBGB\u2019s. I just felt that I had put aside the writing aspect and just write songs and, like I said, there\u2019s a difference in the craft, but that\u2019s just a technical thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

It wasn\u2019t really that hard. It was just trying to get the most out of the tension between the music and the lyrics, counterpoint was always really important to me in any art form, either by opposites or cross currents with chords and stuff. I was just learning a lot and put myself into it completely when I was doing it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

And then by my third album and when we were finished touring, I didn\u2019t want to do it anymore. I wanted to get back to writing. I didn\u2019t regret it at all, it was a really great time. I felt like I was a musician during that whole period, but I didn\u2019t have a musician\u2019s attitude. The guys in my band they would have toured 360 days in a year. I like performing a lot, but I didn\u2019t like being on the road and all the psychological paraphernalia. It was a lucky thing I started relatively late because all the drugs and things that were available, I would have killed myself when I was younger.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

There were certain nights I just didn\u2019t want to be in front of an audience. I didn\u2019t have that feeling (of) no matter how sick you are, when you get on stage you\u2019ll feel great. If I felt shitty physically or mentally … certainly at the beginning songs would take me out of myself but after a while, doing it night after night, you\u2019d just be performing and you\u2019d have to learn how to be an entertainer. That was a difficult thing to do and I felt uncomfortable doing it. And after a while there were nights that I just didn\u2019t want to be in front of people performing, it wasn\u2019t fun. For the guys in the band it was great. That\u2019s when writing books started to come back into my mind.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RD: Recently you\u2019ve collaborated with younger musicians like Rancid, do you see any difference between the generations?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

JC:<\/strong> Not really. They were completely professional and when I did a reading out in Seattle a couple of months ago, I did some songs, these guys from different bands had rehearsed some of my old songs and some new songs from Pools of Mercury, and it was great.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I don\u2019t know, it\u2019s a Seattle thing. I think it\u2019s a real communal thing with musicians there, they don\u2019t backbite. I think that\u2019s the way it was in New York from talking to Lenny Kaye. When I was starting music, it was in San Francisco and most of the bands would really bad mouth other bands and hated each other. And if you got a record deal, they really hated you. It was just this whole jealous backbiting thing. I couldn\u2019t get that because at the poetry scene at St. Mark\u2019s it was always everybody supporting everyone in this real communal way. So it seemed like bullshit to me.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I didn\u2019t really know Rancid\u2019s music when they asked me to do this and I couldn\u2019t believe the guitar playing, it could have been Joe Strummer singing the vocals for all I knew, but that\u2019s just where they were coming from.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

The only thing about, and it doesn\u2019t have anything to do with musicians it\u2019s just the technology, I can\u2019t stand digital recording. I just like recording on real tape. I just think that you really lose a lot with all these binary pixels and stuff. It\u2019s just a physical fact that drums and bass just stick on magnetic tape and compress and you just don\u2019t that sound digitally. When I was doing Pools of Mercury it was all digital. Everything going through a computer, it was amazing the stuff you could do. You know in \u201883 vocoders and stuff were amazing to me too, it really doesn\u2019t matter. I don\u2019t like the whole digital thing, I\u2019m much more of an analog person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RD: It\u2019s more natural that way.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

JC: <\/strong>Yeah. Just as far as the musicians, collaborating with them. I collaborated with Boz Scaggs, how weird is that? I just admire people who are really good at their craft. And, like I said, I like to learn new things and if there\u2019s nothing to learn (laughs) there then you don\u2019t learn anything. You just throw it away, but you usually do if you\u2019re looking for it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RD: A lot of great art whether it be writing, music or painting has been made under the influence of alcohol or drugs. Why do you think that is?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

JC:<\/strong> (laughs) I guess because it\u2019s a very lonely thing and because it drives you crazy after a while. I never liked coke when I was growing up. We had a perverse amount of big cocaine dealers who were fans of the band, for some reason. It was a different drug, it was so much purer out in San Francisco. The fact was everyone was doing cocaine then and it was a real musicians drug. It was a real insidious drug. I got to see pretty soon (that) it was kind of demonic in a certain way, real selfish. It didn\u2019t have any warmth to it, it\u2019s a real cold drug. Boy you got me going (laughs).<\/p>\n\n\n\n

When I was doing a lot of hard drugs when I was young, that\u2019s when I typed things up. I\u2019d get really neat and I actually didn\u2019t really write that much on heroin. Boredom is the best high to me and that\u2019s when I write best.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I can\u2019t drink at all. I cannot understand like when Kerouac would say, “If you get stuck when you\u2019re writing, just have another shot or something.” If I got stuck when I was writing and had another shot, by the second one or maybe one and a half I\u2019d just might be underneath the typewriter (laughs). My metabolism doesn\u2019t work that way, it just knocks me out. So I can\u2019t understand the alcohol syndrome with writing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I see it with certain writers where they can work for days by drinking and it just keeps them level in a certain way. That\u2019s a genetic thing (laughs). Just like the way with heroin, people always think of it as naughty now. With me, if I did enough I\u2019d nod out or eventually I would after a few hours but (usually) it would give me bunches of energy and, like I said, most of the stuff I wrote then was rewritten later, but it was good for typing up things I had already written and it made me very precise in a certain way and it gave me energy to do this shit work. In the sense of making me precise it would make me see that I was wasting words so it would be good for editing and just getting rid of a lot of crap. But ideas and stuff did not come to me, there was no Kubla Khan thing happening.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Artists are always going to look for some kind of way to break through some other door and you have to move around your consciousness now and then to see things from different angles. Unless you want to go off and be a yogi for 80 years and write maybe one book and it probably won\u2019t be too interesting, then the easiest way to do it just take drugs. Well actually I was thinking of writers I liked that didn\u2019t take drugs, but they were total drunks and that\u2019s certainly a drug.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I can\u2019t smoke grass in New York, I wish I could. I get too paranoid, the grass is too strong. I wish I had crappy grass or something. I could never write on grass either. I wrote one good piece on grass once I think. I loved smoking grass to be able to not write though and just put it out of my head and watch movies and be entertained. In that sense I kind of miss that. Maybe I\u2019ll move somewhere where there\u2019s crappy grass. If this applies to Detroit I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RD: There\u2019s crappy grass in Detroit.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

JC:<\/strong> Well, that\u2019s what I want! (laughs)<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RD: You\u2019ve been called the “Keith Richards” of poets, is that a fair comparison?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

JC: <\/strong>I never heard anybody call me that. C\u2019mon (laughs). I don\u2019t know if that\u2019s a good thing. I can\u2019t imagine what Keith\u2019s poems would be like and I\u2019m sure Keith can\u2019t imagine, well he can imagine what my guitar playing\u2019s like – it\u2019s terrible. I\u2019m sure it\u2019s probably coming from a certain presence on stage at times. I take exception to this, well maybe it\u2019s not true, maybe I don\u2019t take exception to it. I don\u2019t know the way I carry myself on stage, you know I don\u2019t think about it consciously, but I remember someone once commenting that I was all over the place. And then I remember someone writing about a benefit for a musician who hurt himself here in New York City and Lenny Kaye organized it and Patti played at it and the Dictators and Marshall Crenshaw. The guy wrote that he\u2019d seen me read a lot but he\u2019d never seen me with my band. But he said that I came off looking so healthy and together and that I was really straight up and I looked really good. So I think I\u2019ve overcome the Keith Richards analogy there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RD: Well I think this guy was getting at when you started you were the rebellious poet, you weren\u2019t in the classical school maybe because you were so young.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

JC: I don\u2019t really see that, that doesn\u2019t just point to Keith. The thing about Keith is completely not giving a shit – well yeah so in that sense it\u2019s like that in a certain way, but I was little snot. I was rebellious in the sense that I wouldn\u2019t show up to readings when I supposed to because I was stoned and shit. Yeah I was a fuck-up too, I was little snotty fuck-up. Yeah in that sense I\u2019ll accept any comparison to Keith. Even flopping around like a fish on stage, I don\u2019t care (laughs). But I was pleased when I saw that review that I looked very healthy and had it together.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RD: Almost as if you had put that past to rest in a way.<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

JC: <\/strong>Yeah, I was dancing around like Mick (Jagger) instead of falling down to my boots.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RD: Growing up Catholic is there any spiritual aspect that you put in your work?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

JC:<\/strong> Yeah absolutely I think my work is very Catholic oriented. I can\u2019t stand the politics of the Church but I\u2019ve always been fascinated by the mythology of the church and the rituals of the church. I once said on some talk show once, I got a lot of shit for it, (that) Catholicism and punk rock were very much alike. What could be more punk rock than the stations of the cross where this guy\u2019s getting whipped and has to wear a crown of thorns and weeps into a veil and leaves his image behind and then gets crucified and rises up? I meant it in a really good way. I just thought the analogy was valid and all these idiots called about it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But I do think that whole blood as a metaphor for life, Christ\u2019s blood as a metaphor for this kind of homeopathic balm of redemption is just something that\u2019s always fascinated me from when I was young. And also, especially with Catholicism, the feminine side, the whole cult of the Virgin which is not in the other Protestant churches, not just with the Virgin Mary but with Mary Magdalene too. That feminine side, I find it very sweet and it\u2019s also reassuring.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But the hideous part, I mean I liked most of the stuff that came out of Vatican II, but getting rid of Latin was the worst thing that you could possibly do. You can\u2019t have a valid ritual without some kind of mysterious language. I can remember saying the mass in Latin and it was just so fantastic. I wanted to know what these words meant, it still sticks with me. It made me take Latin for six years in school.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I thought that was a big mistake. I think that the Church would be a lot better off with (Latin). It just seemed like some cheap ecumenical conciliation and I thought that it just takes away from the ritual of it and any real sense of ritual.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

All these things are ingrained in my work, especially in my poems. There\u2019s a lot of religious imagery either overt or a somewhat more subtle sense. It\u2019s a big part of me. The whole aspect of the Church as politics is a whole other thing. As far as my own sense of faith and belief, I would love to have to have absolute faith but I can\u2019t say that I do. I admire that in a certain way from certain people. I\u2019m going to go into my own sense of faith or anything but yeah just the whole ritualistic aspect of it.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I\u2019ve learned a lot from Buddhism, but I can\u2019t really understand people like Ginsberg going off and becoming Buddhists even though Tibetan Buddhism is really fascinating. I think it\u2019s almost like language. If you\u2019re trained in a certain religion by a certain age you kind of have to walk that path no matter what. It\u2019s just put on you, unless you have some complete epiphany or seizure on the road to Damascus. It would have to be something of that magnitude to really change it around in the sense of it being really integral to your heart. That\u2019s another thing about Catholicism, it has that heart sense to it especially through the cult of the Virgin. It\u2019s not just an intellectual thing.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RD: New York City is also really important to your work and influences a lot of your writing, how do you feel about the sterilized New York of late?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

JC:<\/strong> Well it\u2019s terrible. Guiliani\u2019s really out to lunch but I can\u2019t blame it all on Guiliani, I mean the whole cleaning up is all Guiliani, it\u2019s just almost impossible for people to live in Manhattan anymore. It\u2019s just ridiculous. I have friends living in two story houses in L.A. who are paying half what I\u2019m paying for my fucking apartment in New York. And fortunately I make a living from writing. There\u2019s so many writers who are friends of mine who can\u2019t afford to live in Manhattan unless they\u2019ve been living in a rent subsidized place.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Even the outer Boroughs, after Tribeca and Soho got filled up with artists living in lofts then it moved to Williamsburg in Brooklyn and now the prices there are outrageous. I mean Staten Island\u2019s next.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

San Francisco\u2019s kind of the same way but even though you\u2019re paying the same amount you get more bang for your buck there.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

I felt really blessed to always have grown up in New York but I also felt one of the best times in my life was when I lived by myself in California and I just was able to filter all this learned trivia into some kind of wisdom. Actually, I can write better about New York when I\u2019m outside of New York than I can when I\u2019m here in a certain way, not poetry-wise but prose-wise. So it doesn\u2019t really matter to me where I live as a writer and I don\u2019t make the scene anymore. I don\u2019t really go out. I keep telling myself I should. I was in a real hermetic period for a while but now I\u2019ve moved back downtown. I feel like I should be going out more. Actually I went out last night so that should take care of a month or something.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RD: Do you miss that community of artists that used to exist in New York?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

JC: <\/strong>Well I think it still does at St. Mark\u2019s. St. Mark\u2019s had their big New Year\u2019s Day marathon reading like they always do. I did the one last year and it was so packed. It was like playing with a band at some theater somewhere. It was really scary, people were sitting on the stage. This year I missed it because I had the fucking flu. So I felt bad about that.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

But that sense of community is still there at St. Mark\u2019s and I do miss it in a certain way and I feel like I should be, in some ways, apart of it but it\u2019s not just a matter of place to go, it\u2019s a matter of intersection of time and place in your life. There was a time when it was the right time and place for me to be in that recluse period in California or to be hanging around St. Mark\u2019s. I don\u2019t feel like this is the time for me now. I go out and I just get worn very quick by things and I just want to split. I\u2019m turning into this boring person.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

RD: If there was fire and you only had time to grab three things, what would they be?<\/strong><\/p>\n\n\n\n

JC: <\/strong>Actually I was in an apartment that had a fire about five years ago. I know a grabbed this stash of cash that I had in this place because I had some money that I hadn\u2019t put in the bank. I know I got that (laughs) that was pretty pragmatic. I took these, they’re made by Zen monks in Japan, they’re kind of like Zen rosaries and they\u2019re carved meticulously, they\u2019re so realistic. They\u2019re these little skulls and you use them every year to say a prayer for each monk or friend of yours that died.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Somebody played to the Dalai Lama “People Who Died” at this Zen retreat and he thought it was a funny song (laughs) and he gave me these things as a present. So I grabbed those, you know you got to take something from the Dalai Lama. And then I took a flashlight too because the power went out.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

If I had to take a third thing looking around my apartment, shit. I\u2019d take those prayer beads. I\u2019d take this drawing I have that\u2019s hanging up near the door actually (laughs) maybe in case there is a fire. I guess I\u2019d have to take the manuscript to the book I\u2019m working on. I\u2019d have to take that and hopefully be able to get the notes to the other book too.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u00a92000 Real Detroit Weekly<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Interview by Suzan AlteriReal Detroit Weekly, 13-19 January 2000 Real Detroit probes the mind of a true Renaissance man. REAL Detroit: Why did you start doing spoken word performances? Jim Carroll: Well readings is just another name for spoken word performance I guess. When the whole spoken word thing happened, you know new things came along … Continue reading Unspoken Genius<\/span><\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"parent":3992,"menu_order":19,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","template":"","meta":{"advanced_seo_description":"","jetpack_seo_html_title":"","jetpack_seo_noindex":false,"jetpack_post_was_ever_published":false,"footnotes":""},"folder":[44],"class_list":["post-4215","page","type-page","status-publish","hentry"],"jetpack_sharing_enabled":true,"jetpack_shortlink":"https:\/\/wp.me\/P9VlUH-15Z","jetpack_likes_enabled":true,"jetpack-related-posts":[{"id":9232,"url":"https:\/\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/works\/jim-carroll-music-and-spoken-word\/spoken-word-lecture-recordings-by-jim-carroll\/naropa-institute-reading\/","url_meta":{"origin":4215,"position":0},"title":"Naropa Institute Reading","author":"Cassie Carter","date":"March 10, 2025","format":false,"excerpt":"Logo - Naropa Institute (standing in for 1986 audio recording by JIm Carroll) Spoken-word PerformanceBy Jim Carroll AudiocassetteNaropa Institute Archives, July 1986 This hard-to-get tape features a spoken-word performance Carroll gave during his1986 summer at the Naropa Institute in Colorado, where he has frequently given writing workshops over the years.\u00a0\u2026","rel":"","context":"Similar post","block_context":{"text":"Similar post","link":""},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/03\/naropa-university_174.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/03\/naropa-university_174.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/03\/naropa-university_174.jpg?resize=525%2C300&ssl=1 1.5x"},"classes":[]},{"id":4068,"url":"https:\/\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/works\/jim-carroll-music-and-spoken-word\/jim-carroll-spoken-word-collaborations\/","url_meta":{"origin":4215,"position":1},"title":"Jim Carroll: Spoken-Word Collaborations & Soundtracks","author":"catholicboy.com","date":"January 10, 2022","format":false,"excerpt":"See also: Albums: Spoken-Word\/Lecture Doctor Sax and the Great World SnakeReleased: 2003By: Jack KerouacPerformed by: various artistsLabel: MintGenre: Spoken word (dramatic reading) This two-CD set offers a dramatic reading of Kerouac's previouslyunpublished screenplay. Carroll performs multiple roles and is featured in almost every scene. Robert Creeley narrates. Other readers include\u2026","rel":"","context":"Similar post","block_context":{"text":"Similar post","link":""},"img":{"alt_text":"Cover Art - Doctor Sax and the Great World Snake (2003)","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/wp-content\/uploads\/2023\/03\/drsax.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]},{"id":4031,"url":"https:\/\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/works\/jim-carroll-music-and-spoken-word\/spoken-word-lecture-recordings-by-jim-carroll\/praying-mantis\/","url_meta":{"origin":4215,"position":2},"title":"Praying Mantis","author":"Cassie Carter","date":"January 10, 2022","format":false,"excerpt":"Home > Works > Music & Spoken Word > Spoken Word\/Lecture > Praying Mantis (1991) Praying Mantis By Jim Carroll Giant, 1991 Noble Rot, 2008 (re-issued) Get this on Amazon.com See also: audio clips Tracks: Fragment: Little N.Y. Ode A Day at the Races Times Square's Cage A Child Growing\u2026","rel":"","context":"Similar post","block_context":{"text":"Similar post","link":""},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":8855,"url":"https:\/\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/works\/jim-carroll-music-and-spoken-word\/spoken-word-lecture-recordings-by-jim-carroll\/basketball-diaries-audio-literature\/","url_meta":{"origin":4215,"position":3},"title":"The Basketball Diaries (Audio Literature)","author":"Cassie Carter","date":"March 7, 2025","format":false,"excerpt":"Cover Art: The Basketball Diaries Audiobook The Basketball DiariesBy:\u00a0Jim CarrollRead by:\u00a0Jim CarrollPublished:\u00a01995Publisher:\u00a0Audio LiteratureFormat:\u00a0audio cassetteCover photo:\u00a0Michael ZagarisMusic by:\u00a0Lenny Kaye In this Audio Literature presentation, consisting of two audiotapes, Jim Carroll reads his cult classic book\u00a0The Basketball Diaries, which he wrote between the ages of 12 and 16, from 1962 to 1966.\u2026","rel":"","context":"Similar post","block_context":{"text":"Similar post","link":""},"img":{"alt_text":"Cover Art: The Basketball Diaries Audiobook","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/wp-content\/uploads\/2021\/08\/bdaudio.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1","width":350,"height":200},"classes":[]},{"id":10233,"url":"https:\/\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/research\/performance-reviews\/mtv-in-free-verse-word-pushes-at-poetrys-borders\/","url_meta":{"origin":4215,"position":4},"title":"MTV, in free verse: “Word” pushes at poetry’s borders","author":"Cassie Carter","date":"June 6, 2025","format":false,"excerpt":"MTV, in free verse: \"Word\" pushes at poetry's bordersUSA Today\u00a0(date unknown) Last year, MTV's\u00a0Unplugged\u00a0series plugged into the growing interest in poetry with a half-hour special called\u00a0Spoken Word. And the\u00a0Word\u00a0became fresh. Tonight,\u00a0Spoken Word\u00a0returns with new, back-to-back half hours, starting at 8 p.m. ET\/PT. This time, says\u00a0Unplugged\u00a0co-creator Bob Small,\u00a0Spoken Word\u00a0will speak to\u2026","rel":"","context":"Similar post","block_context":{"text":"Similar post","link":""},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"","width":0,"height":0},"classes":[]},{"id":4519,"url":"https:\/\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/works\/jim-carroll-music-and-spoken-word\/spoken-word-lecture-recordings-by-jim-carroll\/","url_meta":{"origin":4215,"position":5},"title":"Spoken-Word\/Lecture Recordings by Jim Carroll","author":"catholicboy.com","date":"January 10, 2022","format":false,"excerpt":"See also: Spoken-Word: Collaborations Pools of MercuryReleased: 1998By: Jim CarrollLabel: MercuryGenre: Music and spoken word Get this album on Amazon Curtis's Charm: Original Motion Picture SoundtrackReleased: 1996By: Music by Mark Korven with songs by My Brilliant BeastLabel: Rabid Dog ProductionsGenre: Film soundtrack Carroll reads \"Curtis's Charm,\" from Fear of Dreaming.\u2026","rel":"","context":"Similar post","block_context":{"text":"Similar post","link":""},"img":{"alt_text":"","src":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/03\/naropa-university_174.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1","width":350,"height":200,"srcset":"https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/03\/naropa-university_174.jpg?resize=350%2C200&ssl=1 1x, https:\/\/i0.wp.com\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/03\/naropa-university_174.jpg?resize=525%2C300&ssl=1 1.5x"},"classes":[]}],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/pages\/4215","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/pages"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/page"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=4215"}],"version-history":[{"count":3,"href":"https:\/\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/pages\/4215\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":8495,"href":"https:\/\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/pages\/4215\/revisions\/8495"}],"up":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/pages\/3992"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=4215"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"folder","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.catholicboy.com\/WP\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/folder?post=4215"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}